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  • frankenstrudel
    Posts: 26
    Joined: Jun 24th, 2019
    How to choke cymbals in Logic Pro X?
    Dear Joe, inputting MIDI into Logic from my Roland TD-1K drum kit, cymbal chokes don't register. It doesn't seem to matter what Logic kit I'm using -- Bluebird, East Bay, etc -- when I grab the cymbal, the sound doesn't stop. BUT NOTE: If I play through the TD-1K's own module, it chokes cymbals just fine. When triggering a Logic kit, the chokes ("grabs" of the cymbal) just register as additional hits at low velocity. There doesn't seem to be any different MIDI note created for the "grab." I've seen one or two posts in which the user adds a choke in the piano roll, but surely Logic is able to record chokes as they're being played, no?
  • Joe A
    Posts: 1834
    Joined: Oct 1st, 2013
    Re: How to choke cymbals in Logic Pro X?
    Hi - AFACT, cymbal chokes in the Logic Drum Kit Designer kits are assigned to these keys: - for the crash cymbal on C#2 the choke is on E0 - for the crash cymbal on A2 the choke is on F0 Both of the choke notes are short crash sounds that work best as chokes at low MIDI velocities. This seems to be the case in both Drummer's GM map and its specific V-Drum map. The TD-1K manual doesn't indicate what MIDI messages are sent when you choke a cymbal, but a quick search suggested that it may be some kind of poly aftertouch messages. In that case I guess you'd have to convert those messages to the correct choke notes for each crash cymbal [using a MIDI Effect plug-in?]. Since I don't have a Roland kit I can't test this out, so I can't offer specifics, but if you play on the Roland kit and check the MIDI Input display [Custom Header > MIDI Activity] it should show you the particular MIDI message being generated when you choke a cymbal on the kit, and then you could try to convert that to the correct choke note [at low velocity] for each crash, maybe with the Modifier MIDI plug-in [Aftertouch->Note Number?] or with a MIDI Script [I can't help with a script, but a search for 'logic scripter roland drumkit chokes' turned up some discussion on it, including a couple of homemade scripts that might or might not work]. Alternatively, if the Roland kit's brain lets you change the MIDI messages being sent maybe it would let you make appropriate settings there, though I suspect that's not the case or Roland+Logic users would have figured it out by now..
  • frankenstrudel
    Posts: 26
    Joined: Jun 24th, 2019
    Re: How to choke cymbals in Logic Pro X?
    Joe, thanks very much for this detailed reply. I've just read it twice, and will do my best to pursue your suggestions. Much appreciated. It occurred to me after sending my first note that perhaps the TD-1K's brain is actually reading the continued vibration of the cymbal pad. When the cymbal is suddenly made to stop vibrating, this then is interpreted as a choke and the appropriate sound is introduced. I don't know how it would do that. Perhaps some internal weebble-wobble thing whose resonance is read by a magnet and thus converted to an electric signal. But the pad does seem to have a specific area which you should grab, thus suggesting that that area is a real MIDI trigger in its own right. In any case, Logic / Drum Kit Designer, I'm guessing, simply reads the velocity of the hit and generates an appropriate volume and decay. I.e., it doesn't matter if the pad is still vibrating or not; it's only the initial contact that's processed. (I'm guessing.) We then tell Logic to choke whatever that decay is with the appropriate MIDI message, EO, FO, as you say. So, as you're saying, we're hoping that a MIDI signal is indeed generated by grabbing the pad. If we find that, then we try to re-route it / re-assign it to the appropriate choke notes (E0, F0) in Drum Kit Designer. Maybe that's just repeating what you said. Sending it in case it's possibly helpful for anyone else reading. Really do appreciate your fast and detailed feedback. Frank
  • frankenstrudel
    Posts: 26
    Joined: Jun 24th, 2019
    Re: How to choke cymbals in Logic Pro X?
    Joe, here's the instruction I got from Roland: "When choking the pads, the TD-1K sends the MIDI message 'Aftertouch.' You need to confirm that the software is not filtering this message and also that it is setup to be able to interpret it as a cymbal choke. There are no settings in the TD-1 that need to be adjusted to get the pads to transmit the message. Just confirm that the pads are indeed choking when monitoring the TD-1's internal sounds." I guess Logic is "filtering" that 'Aftertouch' message? Do you know where I can locate or disable such a filter? And is there a straightforward way to make sure Logic can "interpret it as a cymbal choke"? Thanks for your help. I'm a newbie at this. Frank
  • Joe A
    Posts: 1834
    Joined: Oct 1st, 2013
    Re: How to choke cymbals in Logic Pro X?
    Hi Frank - Ok, first, to make sure Aftertouch messages are not being filtered in Logic, go to File menu > Project Settings > MIDI > Input Filter and make sure Aftertouch [and Polyphonic Aftertouch] are NOT checked. The second part of that might be trickier. As I said, if DKD's V-Drum mode does not recognize that data, then you'd have to convert the Aftertouch messages to the correct choke notes [at low velocity] for each crash. Of course I can't properly test it here, but the Modifier MIDI plug-in [Aftertouch->Note Number] didn't seem to work for Aftertouch-to-Note conversion, so you might have to do it with a MIDI script. Unfortunately I can't help you with a script, but a previous search for 'logic scripter roland drumkit chokes' turned up some discussion on it, including a couple of homemade scripts that might or might not work, so I guess that might be worth investigating. If you do find a solution, please let us know.. :-)
  • frankenstrudel
    Posts: 26
    Joined: Jun 24th, 2019
    Re: How to choke cymbals in Logic Pro X?
    Joe, thanks for your clear feedback. So far, my solution is Scripter. Logic wasn't filtering Aftertouch or Polyphonic Aftertouch, so that was fine. The only signal I could see when grabbing the cymbals -- at the left of the MIDI Activity display in Custom Header -- was "P". That might stand for Polyphonic Aftertouch, but the relevant code in the script is "PolyPressure." I know nothing about scripts, but I combined two scripts posted by "frederic" on a Logic Pro Help thread. (This message window keeps denying my note, so I won't list the URL. Just search for LPX cymbal chokes Roland.) The crashes have choke samples, so the script converts a PolyPressure signal to those notes. Since RIDE and HH have no choke samples, you have to turn them off. This window seems not to want me to post the script..... Rather than turning the note off, it would be better to have a "new NoteOn" for choking HH and RIDE. By turning the note off, I think we're just shortening the MIDI signal, which means adding some real choke for it later would be laborious. Frederic's scripts used numbers for the cymbals, also listed in my Roland manual. Logic's "MIDI Activity" displays the piano notes: A1, G1, etc. I tried substituting choke sample 28 (for Crash L) as a "new NoteOn" for HH and RIDE, but this didn't yield any choke. Any other ideas? Are there HH and RIDE chokes out there which could be imported? I saved the script in Scripter. That MIDI Effect can then be opened for any drumkit where chokes are needed.
  • Joe A
    Posts: 1834
    Joined: Oct 1st, 2013
    Re: How to choke cymbals in Logic Pro X?
    PolyPressure is the same thing as Polyphonic Aftertouch [Pressure is just another name for Aftertouch]. I wouldn't combine multiple scripts. It's also possible that different V-Drum models might use different notes or P-Pressure messages for the chokes, so those scripts might be specific to a particular V-Drum kit..? Since I have no way to test that here you might want to reach out to the guy who created that script to see if he can help you adapt it for your V-Drum kit..
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